tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post2251766580999500541..comments2023-10-15T16:28:31.347+01:00Comments on The Joseph Report: Why are serious wine journalism and "natural" wines so incompatible?Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00489507739203968378noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-84186323119241635782013-06-13T19:00:27.380+01:002013-06-13T19:00:27.380+01:00Interesting points. When I hear people denigrate n...Interesting points. When I hear people denigrate natural wines for bottle variation or lack of longevity I can't help but imagine the comparison Artisinal bread and pastries to Wonderbread and Twinkies. Yes, Twinkies always taste the same, they last long, and there are void of "flaws". But I think we would all prefer eating a perishable, craft made Éclair. ethanfriesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-72817861154981389742013-06-02T22:38:59.446+01:002013-06-02T22:38:59.446+01:00Thanks David. It's good to have support from s...Thanks David. It's good to have support from someone like you over the "unusually high proportion" of faulty "natual" wines and the "nonsensical" character of the term. <br /><br />The only point I'd make is that the "lack of understanding" seems to go a lot further than journalists. When some of the people who've waded into this debate questionAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489507739203968378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-65213725297234041652013-06-02T19:02:33.815+01:002013-06-02T19:02:33.815+01:00Coming into this late and from far away (ir unable...Coming into this late and from far away (ir unable to attend the tasting mentioned), I have not managed to read every single comment but would tend to agree a lot with Robert on this issue, and also with Simon Woolf whose arguments make sense as well. I consider that the term "natural", at least when applied to wine, is nonsensical and undesireable. Having been faced, at times with an Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15635428184895066582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-80204023518322289552013-05-29T13:25:49.129+01:002013-05-29T13:25:49.129+01:00Hi David,
Interesting stuff about the point of di...Hi David,<br /><br />Interesting stuff about the point of difference actually. I'd not joined the dots in my head, but I think you're absolutely right.<br /><br />One does occasionally encounter indie wine merchants who are staunchly traditional and even anti-"natural wine", but it's pretty rare these days.<br /><br />I didn't realise Ottolenghi were launching a wine Simon Woolf | The Morning Clarethttp://themorningclaret.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-27180763209097518732013-05-29T12:43:40.368+01:002013-05-29T12:43:40.368+01:00Thanks Fabio. As we've agreed elsewhere, neith...Thanks Fabio. As we've agreed elsewhere, neither of us wants to indulge in argumentative ping pong. After 30 years of wine tasting, I'm pretty certain in my mind what constitutes a fault. Now, I may choose to overlook low levels of faultiness but I see no merit in pretending that a spade is not a spade. I may find that a small scar on occasion adds to the aesthetic appeal of a face, but Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489507739203968378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-57903428053809057052013-05-29T12:15:59.190+01:002013-05-29T12:15:59.190+01:00Thank you Simon.
I was trying say that Natural W...Thank you Simon. <br /><br />I was trying say that Natural Wine is the biggest point of difference in terms of a wine category for indies. Its a very important product perfect for hand selling and communicating about on a face to face level. It does not suit larger faceless retailing and is a very real threat to that large part of the wine trade and is arguably the biggest weapon for smaller Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06114494474073888394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-54665940662600466592013-05-28T15:59:51.598+01:002013-05-28T15:59:51.598+01:00Robert, thank you for your response. I don't w...Robert, thank you for your response. I don't want to get all nitpicky and analyze your use of individual words. I just read your original article again, and despite your use of 'some' and 'several' the impression that one gets (or rather, the impression that I get) on reading the whole article is that you indeed mean 'most'! Due to the general tone and overall content.Fabiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08029558448422815096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-50808973415031458292013-05-28T12:27:07.573+01:002013-05-28T12:27:07.573+01:00Fabio, as in the past, I really do think that supp...Fabio, as in the past, I really do think that supporters of the natural wine are more than a little touchy.<br /><br />Please reread what I wrote (below) and explain how my use of the words "some" and "several" can be treated as synonyms for "most, if not all".<br /><br /><b>but there were several </b> that sent me rushing in search of something with which to wash Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489507739203968378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-53409596730510023862013-05-28T11:35:33.943+01:002013-05-28T11:35:33.943+01:00Robert, Yes that's fair enough. You can write ...Robert, Yes that's fair enough. You can write about what you choose and no-one can say anything to you for that. It's also fair enough that you point out the faulty natural wines and bad winemaking, but I fear that you are misrepresenting the reality. Anyone reading your posts would think that most, if not all, natural wines are faulty, cloudy, or otherwise funky, when this is clearly notFabiohttp://vinosambiz.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-43702509846783271212013-05-27T21:24:16.153+01:002013-05-27T21:24:16.153+01:00Sorry Fabio, but as I've said before and as so...Sorry Fabio, but as I've said before and as some of the responses to my post have made clear, there are plenty of people who will focus on the "natural" wines they like. That's not my role. The point I - and others - sought to make was that the growth of the "natural" wine movement has been associated with a - to my mind - striking - renaissance of disgustingly faulty,Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489507739203968378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-12406525543698234542013-05-27T13:33:10.227+01:002013-05-27T13:33:10.227+01:00Hi David, The shop was run by Ottolenghi was it no...Hi David, The shop was run by Ottolenghi was it not? Arguably a strange choice, as they are not primarily a wine-merchant, but hardly corporate?<br /><br />I don't know why you wouldn't include yourself in the list of smaller indies who promote natural wine. Naming conventions aside, you've very successfully coerced Brixtonites into upgrading their wine purchases to something Simon Woolf | The Morning Clarethttp://themorningclaret.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-26167003586039062932013-05-27T11:20:46.201+01:002013-05-27T11:20:46.201+01:00Robert, Simon, Arnold,
Thanks for this post and c...Robert, Simon, Arnold,<br /><br />Thanks for this post and comments. It's a topic that interests me a lot. <br /><br />I agree that if a journalist/writers/blogger has any intentions of being objective, then he/she should mention the fact that a potential buyer MAY be in for a surprise on opening a bottle. But I see no need to focus on the faulty, supposedly-faulty and other non-standard Fabiohttp://vinosambiz.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-86745106708930595082013-05-27T07:45:55.350+01:002013-05-27T07:45:55.350+01:00I didn't attend RAW. It does seem however tha...I didn't attend RAW. It does seem however that it's choice of official shop was a corporate and slick operatation rather than any number of smaller indies who are doing so much for natural wine (I don't include myself in this)Market Row Winesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-28860285870647307662013-05-27T06:59:12.820+01:002013-05-27T06:59:12.820+01:00Winestars World "quality is not the only metr... Winestars World "quality is not the only metric for success"Market Row Winesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-12259865372896821822013-05-26T23:10:09.898+01:002013-05-26T23:10:09.898+01:00Thanks Daniel! Glad you found some gems, I certain...Thanks Daniel! Glad you found some gems, I certainly did.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01117538303709144742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-23855565876545866322013-05-26T21:30:32.351+01:002013-05-26T21:30:32.351+01:00Hi Robert....
Few people do I respect and enjoy t...Hi Robert....<br /><br />Few people do I respect and enjoy their writing more and disagree with more profusely than yourself;)<br /><br />We've had this conversation/argument prior. I'm sharing this link to remind you that this is a replay of the argument we had in the comments with some new twists.<br /><br />-->Natural Wine…an idea in tune with the times <br />http://awe.sm/hFBhN<br arnold waldsteinhttp://arnoldwaldstein.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-78694798770895874962013-05-26T21:02:19.457+01:002013-05-26T21:02:19.457+01:00Thanks Simon. As ever, I enjoy debating with peopl...Thanks Simon. As ever, I enjoy debating with people like Arnold and yourself - on the basis that any belief - religious, political or otherwise - that cannot take a bit of robust treatment is unlikely to survive for long. I appreciate your move away from the "N" word, and question why someone with Jamie Goode's intelligence and scientific background is still so happy to embrace its Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489507739203968378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-21662199923891904152013-05-26T20:24:55.792+01:002013-05-26T20:24:55.792+01:00Well done Simon. If nothing else RAW gives a voice...Well done Simon. If nothing else RAW gives a voice to the one and two man bands. There were a multitude of gems there. Winerackdhttp://about.me/winerackdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-63964419956952886662013-05-26T19:54:09.737+01:002013-05-26T19:54:09.737+01:00Not so much archived as printed on yellowing paper...Not so much archived as printed on yellowing paper. I'll try to dig some up for you...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489507739203968378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-2821361755884365652013-05-26T19:39:26.194+01:002013-05-26T19:39:26.194+01:00Robert,
You make some very valid points here. I&#...Robert,<br /><br />You make some very valid points here. I'd hate to think I'd shirked any responsibilities I might have as a journalist/writer/blogger (delete as appropriate. I'm not sure which apply to me).<br /><br />It is worth bearing in mind that my write-up of RAW is best considered an opinion piece or feature article – not a news column. That doesn't excuse me from sloppy Simon Woolf | The Morning Clarethttp://themorningclaret.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-83563004688128455342013-05-26T10:54:48.164+01:002013-05-26T10:54:48.164+01:00Thanks. I'd like to read those (archived?) tas...Thanks. I'd like to read those (archived?) tasting notes.<br />John Atkinson MWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18094157281418567475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-47997354251689506942013-05-26T09:18:40.490+01:002013-05-26T09:18:40.490+01:00Yes, Tony, though I'd take issue over the oxid...Yes, Tony, though I'd take issue over the oxidised wines. Even a century ago, I believe that connoisseurs preferred fresh-tasting wines to oxidised ones.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489507739203968378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-37343987125507606002013-05-26T09:17:31.919+01:002013-05-26T09:17:31.919+01:00Good points John. In fact, when Charles Metcalfe a...Good points John. In fact, when Charles Metcalfe and I launched Wine Intl magazine, we listed and described all the wines we tasted - and had fun coming up with terms for the really filthy ones. We found that most consumers didn't want or need those negative reviews - unless they were of well-known wines they might have been in danger of buying. Movie reviewers write about have a dozen films,Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489507739203968378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-3016917965288155432013-05-26T08:10:19.444+01:002013-05-26T08:10:19.444+01:00I need some help separating "serious wine jou...I need some help separating "serious wine journalism" from advertorial. As you say, accentuating the positive gives a skewed perspective on natural wine, but so much wine writing seems fearful of offending a potential income stream. I hear a lot about the Trophy winners at the IWC etc., but there is little naming and shaming of underperformers. Fiona is right about this: there is a John Atkinson MWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18094157281418567475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31735534.post-80553674458101575022013-05-26T05:37:14.170+01:002013-05-26T05:37:14.170+01:00This is an important discussion, but you are talki...This is an important discussion, but you are talking to each other and not on the intended recipient of your criticisms -the potential buyer. Taste is a learned experience based on what we eat rather than drink. At one time oxidised white wines were the norm and no one complained. Natural wine tastes are not the norm but it is the responsibility of the critic to point this out. This wine may notAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04968265997771247611noreply@blogger.com